There was a time within living memory when a large percentage of men had served in the military. Usually only for a couple of years as a draftee or a reserve officer, or a three year enlistment. Can’t say I’m a fan of the draft, but the country was a better place when young men of the upper and upper-middle classes were prepared to serve, briefly in peace time and as needed in time of war. The Vietnam War did no greater lasting harm to the American republic than finally and permanently severing the connection between the ruling and managerial classes and a willingness to defend the society from which they so benefit.
@Winedavid49 The federal academies (and the cadet corps’ in the senior military colleges - Norwich, VMI, Citadel, Virginia Tech, Texas A&M, and North Georgia, of which only VMI and Citadel have no or few civilian students) are a small number of men and women, exceptions which prove the rule. And, they are under attack in many ways, but that’s a different issue.
My point was much broader: from the beginning of the republic through the ‘50s, men from the upper and upper middle classes largely officered the regular military and the militia (through 19th century) and National Guard/reserves (after WWI). It was widely considered a duty of responsible citizenship to be ready to defend the country. That has largely changed. There was little or no stigma to having avoided military service during Vietnam and thereafter, those who served were seen as suckers. Now, though some admirable young men and women from the privileged classes do go to the academies/military colleges and serve, most from privileged backgrounds would not even consider serving.
@canonizer It’s a complex question that doesn’t have a simple answer. Some of it has its roots in the disenchantment with all things military that came out of the carnage of WWI, especially in Britain and France, but also among elites and academics here. Some of it comes out of the post-WWII disenchantment with the Cold War and sympathy for the Communist bloc. Some of it was probably cowardice born of the materialism that surrounded we boomers in our childhoods and youth. Some of it was a loss of trust in government more broadly. Some of it was media hostility. Depends on which day you ask me which factors I’d weigh more or less heavily.
@rpm
Eloquent response, Sir, but I blame the government, itself, for the mess we find ourselves in.
They are the leaders, yet allowed over 58000 casualties, then decided to allow those who ran, free entry, back home? Not ‘old government’, but relatively recent government.
Where was that American trait, that always honored our word, and obligation to our own, then? What of our allies?
I was disgusted to the depths of my soul, and wished that I could fold my uniform, and place it on the steps of the dais. I was not disgusted as much, until that mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq.
I am very much American, served honorably throughout, but know that our countrymen need to wake up, before it was all for naught.
@CroutonOllie I share much of your disgust. That said, I think blam[ing] the government itself is too blanket a statement. On one level, the politicians set the goals for the military, and their supervision and changes in standards, and some of the leaders they appointed at varying levels of command, are surely responsible. But, the changes in society I alluded to set the environment in which the politicians made (and continue to make) such disastrous decisions. I disagreed with going into Vietnam early on, was lucky enough my service was not in Vietnam (though I lost high school and college friends there), and then disagreed with the way the antiwar movement did its thing. I disagreed with Carter’s “ollie ollie outs in free” and disagreed with the pass Clinton got on his despicable manipulation of an ROTC deferment to ‘preserve his political viability’ (which might not be an exact quote from his letter to the Colonel who helped him get the deferment, but it’s close). But, I’m out of step these days, I come from an older world where the ideal was the citizen-soldier: pursuing his or her civilian vocation, but trained as an officer, ready in every time of deepest peril to assume a leadership role in defense of the country.
In honor of Veterans Day, I want to send a heartfelt thank you to everyone that has served our country, past and presently. My thoughts are with the families of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. They shall not be forgotten.
Does anyone that has served in the military ever refer to themselves as “ex-military”?
Happy Belated Birthday to the Marine Corp
Happy Armistice Day - thank a Veteran.
Nie
There was a time within living memory when a large percentage of men had served in the military. Usually only for a couple of years as a draftee or a reserve officer, or a three year enlistment. Can’t say I’m a fan of the draft, but the country was a better place when young men of the upper and upper-middle classes were prepared to serve, briefly in peace time and as needed in time of war. The Vietnam War did no greater lasting harm to the American republic than finally and permanently severing the connection between the ruling and managerial classes and a willingness to defend the society from which they so benefit.
@rpm do you attribute this to the length of the war or that the population lost its trust in our government to determine when war was necessary?
I think walking the balance beam of supporting our troops (the pawns) and our government can do no right is challenging for the average citizen.
@rpm The military academies are a thankful exception to your position, RPM. very much needed talent and commitment to the country.
@Winedavid49 The federal academies (and the cadet corps’ in the senior military colleges - Norwich, VMI, Citadel, Virginia Tech, Texas A&M, and North Georgia, of which only VMI and Citadel have no or few civilian students) are a small number of men and women, exceptions which prove the rule. And, they are under attack in many ways, but that’s a different issue.
My point was much broader: from the beginning of the republic through the ‘50s, men from the upper and upper middle classes largely officered the regular military and the militia (through 19th century) and National Guard/reserves (after WWI). It was widely considered a duty of responsible citizenship to be ready to defend the country. That has largely changed. There was little or no stigma to having avoided military service during Vietnam and thereafter, those who served were seen as suckers. Now, though some admirable young men and women from the privileged classes do go to the academies/military colleges and serve, most from privileged backgrounds would not even consider serving.
@canonizer It’s a complex question that doesn’t have a simple answer. Some of it has its roots in the disenchantment with all things military that came out of the carnage of WWI, especially in Britain and France, but also among elites and academics here. Some of it comes out of the post-WWII disenchantment with the Cold War and sympathy for the Communist bloc. Some of it was probably cowardice born of the materialism that surrounded we boomers in our childhoods and youth. Some of it was a loss of trust in government more broadly. Some of it was media hostility. Depends on which day you ask me which factors I’d weigh more or less heavily.
@rpm
Eloquent response, Sir, but I blame the government, itself, for the mess we find ourselves in.
They are the leaders, yet allowed over 58000 casualties, then decided to allow those who ran, free entry, back home? Not ‘old government’, but relatively recent government.
Where was that American trait, that always honored our word, and obligation to our own, then? What of our allies?
I was disgusted to the depths of my soul, and wished that I could fold my uniform, and place it on the steps of the dais. I was not disgusted as much, until that mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq.
I am very much American, served honorably throughout, but know that our countrymen need to wake up, before it was all for naught.
@CroutonOllie I share much of your disgust. That said, I think blam[ing] the government itself is too blanket a statement. On one level, the politicians set the goals for the military, and their supervision and changes in standards, and some of the leaders they appointed at varying levels of command, are surely responsible. But, the changes in society I alluded to set the environment in which the politicians made (and continue to make) such disastrous decisions. I disagreed with going into Vietnam early on, was lucky enough my service was not in Vietnam (though I lost high school and college friends there), and then disagreed with the way the antiwar movement did its thing. I disagreed with Carter’s “ollie ollie outs in free” and disagreed with the pass Clinton got on his despicable manipulation of an ROTC deferment to ‘preserve his political viability’ (which might not be an exact quote from his letter to the Colonel who helped him get the deferment, but it’s close). But, I’m out of step these days, I come from an older world where the ideal was the citizen-soldier: pursuing his or her civilian vocation, but trained as an officer, ready in every time of deepest peril to assume a leadership role in defense of the country.
@rpm
You are a good man, a credit to both the United States, and her people.
I agree, not the government, entirely, but a choice made to placate a subset. The wrong one, in my opinion, but one made by those tasked to do so.
Thank you for your response, and my best wishes in all.
Chuck
PS: Citizen/soldier was a great idea; I believe Rome had it.
/giphy poof
In honor of Veterans Day, I want to send a heartfelt thank you to everyone that has served our country, past and presently. My thoughts are with the families of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. They shall not be forgotten.
Does anyone that has served in the military ever refer to themselves as “ex-military”?
Happy Belated Birthday to the Marine Corp
Happy Armistice Day - thank a Veteran.