While I do not count myself as one of Trump’s “idiot followers”, I do think there are many on the right who will say things they don’t necessarily believe in order to create a narrative to try to affect an outcome. Just the usual mechanations of modern day American politics. The left uses similar tactics when necessary.
Personally and generally speaking, I don’t have a problem with Trump and his people wanting to investigate potential election fraud and explore legal avenues in an effort to ferret out wrongdoing or even turn close races in some states. That said, I also feel that the rhetoric and accusations have mostly been way over the top and the lawsuits about as effective as Rudy Giuliani’s hair dye.
I hope that President Trump will leave peacefully and expediently when the time comes although I’m sure that “quietly” would be far too much to ask.
Getting back to the point, most of Trump’s supporters, IMHO are blindly supporting him in spite of his election fraud claims, not because of them. I think it’s wrong to categorize them all as idiots or assume that they believe those accusations, even if they claim to do so.
You know I would never think of you as an idiot of any sort.
And yes, some people are amazingly dishonest and make things up to try to achieve some political end. Trump is the master of that, to the detriment of the entire country and the world. Political “spin” is one thing, but Trump literally waged a war on the truth. If there had been any evidence of electoral fraud and if Trump’s investigations had turned up anything then I’d remain supportive of following through. That’s the only honest stance anybody should take.
However, literally every single case Trump brought to court was dismissed because there was either no cause of action, no injury, a failure to bring them in a timely fashion, or no evidence. The lawyers in their filings and in court were crystal clear that they also were not alleging fraud of any sort - because lying in court can get you disbarred.
So sure, investigate to your heart’s content, but you have to be honest with it and with the American people. That was always Trump’s failure from the start and until the end. His perpetuating of this lie damages the country. The 75% statistic proves the point.
I’ll also throw in here, that of the actual cases of voting fraud that I’ve seen reported (a biased set, I’m sure) the vast majority have been perpetrated by Republican partisans and also only affected a handful (i.e. < 5) of votes. And my understanding is that’s generally been the case with voting fraud in this country: a small number of cases in each election affecting a small number of votes. Only in races as tight as the Iowa congressional district (margin: 6 votes) could that affect the outcome.
The Heritage Foundation maintains a database (https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud). While I have approximately 1.3% overlap with their policy preferences, I trust them to have comprehensively done the research. Although even the “about” page discussing the database makes it sound like a Republican talking point.
Trump remains true to his antidemocratic self, pressuring the Georgia Secretary of State to “find” 11,000 votes, based solely on rumor from his sycophants. Meanwhile, his GAO and OMB refuses to assist the transition. He is a catastrophe.
@DanOR “Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.”
@KitMarlot I’d say that sums it up. We have numerous domestic enemies trying to overthrow the duly elected government and these senators, as well as the President, are giving aid and comfort. There will be plenty of witnesses to their treachery. Perhaps you would prefer sedition as the more appropriate charge?
While I will be the first to admit that Trump is a narcissistic megalomaniac who refuses to face reality, the hyperbole and bombast from the left and most media outlets has been and continues to be equally annoying.
@chipgreen And honestly, that’s my thing. I don’t like Trump and didn’t vote for him, but I like and respect many of the ‘deplorables’ who did. Many of them are not idiots. Some of them are ill-informed and see ghosts around dark corners, but most of them have rational reasons for supporting him. De-legitimizing someone else’s opinions and preferences is its own form of tyranny.
@chipgreen Sorry, could you be more specific as to what constitutes hyperbole and bombast?
I’ll refrain from engaging in both-sider-ism here because that’s what bugs me the most about some of these discussions, except to point out the Fox News claims that Obama was going to impose Shariah law on the United States.
The hyperbole and bombast from the left has been going on for 4 years now, not just since the recent election. All the investigations, accusations and impeachment proceedings were filled to the brim with hyperbole and bombast. And yes, there was plenty of it to go around from the right about Obama when he was President as well. And again from the left when Bush was President. And from the right when Clinton was President. Rinse, lather, repeat.
I have grown weary of it from both sides over the years and it only serves to inflame those whose backers are on the side it’s coming from and entrench those against it on the other side. I almost wish our pols would just throw down every once in awhile like they do in… Taiwan? Maybe there would be some of the schoolyard chumminess after a good row between the two sides. Of course it wouldn’t last, but even a little break would be refreshing.
@chipgreen I appreciate your acknowledging that this is not a recent invention of the left.
One difference that’s seemed apparent to me is that the more recent ones done by the right have more of an intent to affect election outcomes while much (but by no means all) of the stuff from the left seems to actually want to figure out whether something happened. I could grant that the first Benghazi investigation was trying to do that, but the umpteenth?
As for impeachment, I think Trump should have been booted from office for trying to squeeze a foreign country for election assistance. Obviously ymmv, but that was one of the few things where I thought the rhetoric coming from the actual House members (particularly Adam Schiff) was perfectly accurate. I don’t pay much attention to the media for many of the reasons you outline.
@chipgreen@klezman I hate to be piling on because I appreciate that we’re still attempting to hang out despite the political divide. But I am not sure it is possible to be hyperbolic about Trump.
From his earliest days he and his family tried to evict people of color from their housing developments; took out full page ads (for no particular reason) calling for the execution of the now exonerated Central Park 5; bankrupted municipalities (he bear culpability for those actions); he (and his siblings) defrauded the government of revenue in a complicated scheme to reduce his inheritance taxes; he went out of his way to reduce his brother’s childrens’ inheritance on his father’s deathbed and forced their cooperation with a settlement by threatening to withhold medical care from his nephew; he at worst assaulted a number of women and acted reprehensibly at best; and (this is not a moral failing, perhaps) his entire fortune is from inheritance and licensing revenue as television host while pretending to “do business”.
While president, he continue to put his perceived self-interest above every element of his job. I cannot say that for any other president since Nixon and Nixon only on his worst days.
I don’t get the enthusiasm of his supporters but, given such support, I understand why simps like Rubio and Cruz march as best they can to his ill timed drumbeat.
@canonizer@chipgreen@FritzCat@klezman Reps and Dems have been playing a different game since at least the 1960’s, with Tricky Dick and his evil entourage blueprinting the conservative strategy of lying, cheating, and stealing their way through election cycles. The Dems, on the other hand, have chosen to “go high” when the Reps go low. Dumb. In battle, the only reason to “go high” is to rain boulders on the enemy below, but that’s not in the Dem’s playbook.
Not to my knowledge? I have never lived in Canada. My oldest sister was born there but by the time I was born, our family had relocated to the Cleveland area. I have a lot of Aunts/Uncles and cousins in Alberta and another cousin in the Yukon.
@chipgreen If one (or both) of your parents was born in Canada you should already be a citizen. You’d just need to get the proof of citizenship by submitting your information and proof of your parent’s Canadian birth certificate. It’s super easy - got it for my first kid immediately and we’re about to send it off for our second.
@chipgreen@FritzCat Good job marrying a Canadian!
Yeah, technically they’re citizens at birth and just need the certificate. So it’s really just an administrative process more than a discretionary one. Which is really nice.
It is reasonable to protest (even violently) when the people you believe in tell you that an election was rigged. That makes Trump, Cruz, Hawley, Rubio, Jordan, Nunes and dozens of others complicit in the destruction in DC.
Their fearmongering is odious. To borrow a phrase: lock them up.
@DanOR@losthighwayz Several discussions on NPR and other places about exactly this. The chair of African American Studies at Princeton was blunt: the police response yesterday made it abundantly clear that there are rules for white people and rules for everybody else. (I paraphrased)
"These terrorists (they are not protesters; they are not rioters; they are terrorists, insurrectionists, and traitors) have violated the following federal laws:
18 U.S.C. § 2385. Seditious Conspiracy. If “two or more people… conspire… by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof,” penalties are fines and twenty years imprisonment.
18 U.S.C. § 1361. Destruction of Government Property. If the damage exceeds $100, penalties are fines up to $250,000 and ten years imprisonment.
18 U.S.C. § 111. Assaulting Federal Officers. Fines vary, 20 years imprisonment.
18 U.S.C. § 351. Assault on Members of Congress. One year imprisonment.
41 CFR 102-74.380. Creating a Hazard on Federal Property. Penalties vary.
36 CFR 2.34 (and elsewhere). Disorderly Conduct. 90 days imprisonment, $300 fine."
@davirom Not a Trump supporter, more of an anti-Trump Hater, but I’m a fan of both the First Amendment and the rule of law. Probably not many Trump supporters who think critically about wine (or at all.) This was an appalling case of angry protesters getting out of hand (not unlike Seattle’s CHAZ or the riots in Kenosha this summer) and every perpetrator should be punished according to law. There’s plenty of fiery rhetoric out there, but don’t forget that Congress concluded their business shortly before dawn. “If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.”
-Federalist No. 51
Yup, you’re all correct best I can tell.
-White privilege in that only one person was killed
-Terrorists attacking the Capitol
-The need for the 25th amendment and/or another super quick impeachment
-Complicity from certain Republican officeholders, who may now qualify to be removed from office under the 14th amendment for inciting this insurrection
Also, Biden sounded like a real president of the USA in his announcement earlier. Such a relief.
Politics aside, today was a disgrace and an embarrassment for our entire country. No matter which political party anyone supports, they need to respect our democracy and maintain human decency.
The president (as well as other officials, staff, family, etc) that flat out incited today’s events and attempt at “mob rule” should be held accountable. Sadly, I have a feeling that’s not likely to happen.
@kawichris650 Yeah, I’m not optimistic that perpetrators will be held accountable, especially the perpetrator in chief, DJT.
Although I did hear on NPR this morning that several people have been charged by the DOJ so far and they expect to file charges against many more people.
But the international perspective was also helpful: how does the USA prove to the world that this truly is a beacon of democracy? Is it possible to do that without holding Trump accountable for sowing distrust in elections, in democracy, and for inciting political violence - perhaps the single most undemocratic thing he could have done?
The President’s language and rhetoric often goes too far," … “I think, yesterday in particular, the President’s language and rhetoric crossed the line and it was reckless. I disagree with it, and I have disagreed with the President’s language and rhetoric for the last four years.”
Cruz JUST OFFERED REPRESENTED TEXAS IN CONTESTING THE ELECTIONS OF OTHER STATES IN ORDER TO BOOST TRUMP’S OPINION OF HIM.
Just amazing to see these spineless people walking upright. Goddamn medical miracle.
Here’s a multiple choice option to make it easier for conservatives to respond :
A ) Denial: “It didn’t happen”, “Fake news”
B ) False equivalency: “The left has done worse”
C ) Deathbed conversion: “There’s only 12 days left in his term, but gee, maybe he IS a bad guy”
D ) Ignorance: “Who knew 4+ years of this rhetoric would come to this?”
E ) Outright lying: “Those weren’t Trump supporters at the rally and in the Capitol, they were antifa”
Are you looking for responses from conservatives now? Because before you were after “Trump apologists”. I am the former, not the latter.
Of course the siege on the Capital was horrible and inexcusable. Right wing fringe groups were the main instigators (not Antifa or BLM or Anarchists as some claim, although there is always the possibility that there were a handful of “professional agitators” mixed in, just as there were in the BLM riots last year). Just as in those BLM riots, there were a small percentage of violent protesters who made everyone look bad.
Qanon conspiracy theorists, Proud Boys, Boogaloo, White supremacists and Nationalists, right-wing militia types, etc. These groups are not representative of the average Republican or conservative. They are, however, much more mainstream than they have any right to be, based upon Trump’s refusal to condemn groups such as theirs as long as they support(ed) him. They were always fringe groups until Trump started wooing them (with his “good people on both sides” rhetoric).
Hopefully they will recede back into the fringes in the coming years.
@chipgreen Thank you for a reasoned reply to what was intended to be an attempt at facetious humor. Although, all of the listed “answers” correspond to responses I read that were made by Trump supporters when asked for comment.
You say the right-wing groups you mention are “not representative of the average Republican or conservative”, but given that Trump got 74 million votes I have to question what it means to be average in that population. Even if you discount the single-issue voters Trump appealed to (abortion, guns, tax reductions, etc.) there are still a lot of Republicans who are willing to vote for someone who lies constantly, dismantles needed infrastructure (I’m thinking of the pandemic response team Obama left that was functioning when DJT took over), separates families and puts the kids in cages, etc. etc. etc.
I guess I’m old fashioned, but to me character counts. At one time I considered myself a Rockefeller Republican, but the Republican party that could include me no longer exists. Even though I was once considered conservative and hold the same views, the “average” Republican has moved so far to the right of me s/he may as well be on another planet.
@chipgreen@davirom Hell, even this socially liberal Canadian could have held his nose and voted for Republicans as recently as Bush 2. But today’s GOP? Not a chance in hell.
(The holding my nose would have been because of the sexism and anti-abortion stance of the GOP even then.)
You’re saying there isn’t a single Republican you could vote for today? You realize that there is a rather large faction of Never-Trumpers, yes? And even some who publicly supported Trump but have disapproved of things he has said and done along the way. An example of that would be Ohio’s Governor Mike Dewine, who has gained wide bipartisan support for his handling of the pandemic here in OH.
It is disappointing to see you continue to paint the right with such broad strokes.
@chipgreen@DanOR@klezman I could have supported Romney except to get the nomination he ran to the right (e.g. repudiating Romneycare in MA) and Obama seemed the better choice to me. I might have supported John McCain or Jeff Flake. I don’t say Republicans are unappealing per se, but it seems the ones who rise high enough to be on a ballot feel the need to pander to the Trumpkins; the archetypes being Hawley and Cruz, but there are also a hundred or so in the House that made a pointless stand to overthrow the election.
@chipgreen@davirom I suppose I should have clarified - I know less about Republican parties at the state level. The national Republican Party has, to me, moved so far away from an entity that I could support on so many things. I simply cannot support a party that wants to roll back civil rights, put religion ahead of everything else (I say this as a somewhat observant person), and pander to the worst things in the United States. Even if I agree with some of their policy preferences they are just too far from what I consider to be reasonable. It’s not just about Trump, it’s about the whole platform they’ve espoused for the past decade.
I don’t know much about Dewine. I did like John Kasich when he was running for the Republican nomination, although even he, on further looking, was amazingly anti-abortion, which is a nonstarter for me. I simply cannot agree that the government should interfere in a woman’s reproductive rights (before fetal viability).
So while there might be individual Republicans who I think are honest and principled, the federal Republican Party is too full of rot for me.
Full disclosure, though, I’m also not exactly a progressive on many things and dislike much of the rhetoric from the far left and disagree with some (many?) of their policy proposals.
I find it interesting how many of these “brave patriots” are on the run, in hiding, or backpedaling now that their revolution has flamed out and their leader is hunkered down in the WH. “I was just recording it for the media”; “I was trying to convince the others to be respectful”; “I didn’t mean to be there but got swept in with the crowd”; “It’s not my fault that others were out of control”. The hunt is on for these seditious rats and they will be brought to account.
@chipgreen I agree with you but want to make the distinction between arsonists and looters, which largely cause property damage (not condoning that) and an insurrectionist mob which wanted to overthrow the US government. There is, at least to me, a huge difference in the threat level each represents.
Impeachment should proceed even though Trump will only be in office for 2 weeks. What he did should not go unpunished, and it prevents him from running for any office in the future. As a bonus, our tax dollars won’t be going to pay him a pension, providing health insurance, or paying for his security for the rest of his life.
Regarding our politics in general, Democrats have to ask themselves why 74 million Americans believed it was better to vote for Trump than Biden. I understand the far right, hardcore 33% supporting a Republican candidate no matter what. But what about the other 10-15% that still said Trump was better than any alternative the Democrats could offer? That’s after 4 years of seeing him continually lie, pander to extremists (or at the very least not willing to condemn them), turned combatting the Corona virus into a political issue that likely resulted in thousands of preventable deaths, and numerous other things. Is this simply tribalism where people will vote R or D, no matter the quality of the human being representing their party?
@dirtdoctor I’m with you on impeachment. He also needs to be impeached and convicted (a) as a matter of principle for inciting an insurrection against the United States, and (b) so that he can be prevented from ever holding elected office again.
I think part of the answer to your other questions is the right wing media bubble that only rarely lets reality in. There are plenty of side by side screenshots you can find of Fox News vs other websites during the insurrection at the Capitol. It’s maddening.
Maybe because Biden has been running for President on and off for close to 40 years now. He’s like a Democratic Ralph Nader. But suddenly in 2020 he is the best you guys can offer? The best “Not Trump” you could come up with? Ugh.
I guess what I was trying to say can be applied to both parties, in that they should be looking at their messaging and priorities to broaden their appeal to more Americans. Maybe @klezman is right and it’s just a function of how people get their news, whether it’s left/right wing national media or Twitter/Facebook feeds that spew crazy conspiracy theories that people automatically think are true without doing any research (I personally think this is the bigger issue).
I guess I have a follow up question for @chipgreen. What characteristics would a Democratic candidate need to gain more support from center-right Republicans? I agree that Biden was not that most inspirational candidate, but for me he seemed to have several characteristics that were important. He was closer to the center than the far left and he generally seems to care about fellow Americans. Yes, his speeches are generally not inspiring and he often says stupid things, but you rarely hear anyone say something bad about his character and intentions. For me, even before looking at policies, the first step in deciding my vote is to evaluate whether or not the candidate is a good person. I don’t know how anyone can look at the entirety of Trump’s life and come to the conclusion that he cares about anything but himself. The constant lies, things he said about women and potentially did to them, making fun of a disabled man, constantly peddling unfounded conspiracy theories, never admitting a mistake, worrying about his economy and re-election instead of telling Americans the truth about COVID-19, and it just goes on. It was an easy choice between Biden and Trump, and I’ll admit it was more difficult in 2016 but ultimately I thought Hilary was the lesser of 2 evils (which I think Trump has proven true).
Maybe my lesson is Americans care less about a person’s morals as long as they promise to cut their taxes or give them free healthcare and pay their college tuition.
@canonizer because the Democratic party is the major party opposing the Republican party candidate, Donald Trump, for whom 74mm Americans voted. The question posed isn’t “why did the Republican candidate lose”, but “how could 49% of Americans vote for a person we consider evil”. One conclusion is that 49% of Americans are evil, but there are others.
I don’t think Biden was inspiring, but he’s the right candidate for this moment in so many ways. He exemplifies all of the good qualities we want to see in our leaders and has so few of the bad ones. He’s just so human in a way that makes me proud to have him be an example for my kids.
The thing about what I said about messaging is a bit more subtle than that. The Democrats have a broadly popular agenda if you ask about the policies in isolation, but when you ask about the “Democratic agenda” its popularity goes down. Better messaging should be able to fix this gap.
My prescription for the Republicans is to propose a conservative slant on policies that do what people actually want. Their messaging is so effective (aided and abetted by Fox News, OANN, etc) that they’ve created an alternate reality for their party. And they need to stop stoking racial resentments, being anti-abortion, and sexist. Only then can there be a true battle of ideas.
What characteristics would a Democratic candidate need to gain more support from center-right Republicans?
Firstly, more of my fellow Republicans need to move closer to the center and stop trying to shame us moderates with terms like “RINO”. Secondly, I think Biden actually does embody some of the characteristics that center-right Repubs would require but he feels like a retread. He is quite obviously past his peak (as was McCain for the Repubs when he finally got his nomination) and is a perennial also-ran. The constant gaffes and the serial hair-sniffing don’t help.
Clearly any Dem would have to express a willingness to reach across the aisle to have a chance at bipartisan appeal, at the risk of losing goodwill within his/her own party. These candidates (on both sides), to a large extent, are formed from our own image. We as a nation have to move collectively towards the center before candidates will start to follow suit. I don’t think it will work the other way around.
@KitMarlot I think the Republicans have successfully created 2 wedge issues in the last 50 years that have siphoned off democrats: abortion and unrestricted gun rights. On a personal level, I think Democrats could find a middle path on gun rights since the population supports reasonable safety measures; given the overwhelming female constituency there isn’t any daylight on reproductive issues (which I support).
The third issue that Republicans claim is taxes and there is something uniquely aspirational about the American belief for lowering marginal tax rates. Trump could have cut taxes for everyone other than the highest bracket but instead gave the overwhelming windfall in tax reduction to the wealthiest/highest earning people. Democrats could easily leave all the tax brackets as is except adding 2 marginal brackets (the obvious figures being 39.6 and then something in the 40s). I’m sure there will be screams of SOCIALISM even though there is nothing historically remarkable about such rates after WWII.
[And then there is this WILD shift in blue collar/manufacturing towards Trump when the Republican party seeks only to reduce the power of labor at a moment when labor’s power (and share of corporate revenue) has dwindled horribly.]
I don’t think 49% of the population is evil. I think there is something wrong when a substantial majority of Republicans believe that the presidential election was stolen (despite many House seats flipping back to Rs). There is something profoundly wrong, and perhaps evil, with the people (Trump, Cruz, Hawley, Limbaugh, Bongino, et al) who amplify that lie. And to suggest that this is the same as the 2016 cri de coeur of “not my president”, when Clinton conceded the day after the election, can charitably only be called bad faith.
Watching Republican leadership try to overthrow the government in a procedural ratification of electorates is beyond disturbing. Watching “conservative” pundits blame Antifa or BLM for the violent attempted coup in DC makes me feel ill. Watching Trump tell a group of white nationalists to walk over to the Capitol to overturn a stolen election makes me want to see him rot in prison.
Thanks for the thoughtful beginning portion of your post. We need collaborative efforts like this from our politicians. Where can we find common ground? Where can we compromise? Let’s start there, get some successes under our belts and then work backwards to the more contested ideals with some positive momentum and goodwill already having been generated.
@canonizer@chipgreen@KitMarlot Unfortunately, for all that the “mates” on this board may be able to reach a kumbya moment, national politicians are too heavily invested (and by that I mean fundraising) in division to give more than a sly sort of lip service to bipartisanship. The only issue with a chance that I can think of at the moment is infrastructure repair.
I know what you mean. As someone who has been dragged half-willingly into local politics, I have seen firsthand how the party bosses demand unwavering loyalty from their stable of candidates.
Without the support of local, state and/or national parties, candidates would be forced to do all their own fundraising and that is no easy task without party support. That leaves guys like Michael Bloomberg and Andrew Yang or perhaps an Elon Musk who can actually thumb their noses at one or both parties and choose their own platforms.
But ultimately, the party bosses want candidates who can win. It once again comes back to us, the public, to demand more centrist candidates.
This has to be the most respectful, even-tempered political discussion board around, maybe due to the liberal consumption of our favorite beverage. Some of the others are more like a MMA death match. Congrats everyone for keeping it civil!
There was nothing un-civil or disrespectful about his posts when he was participating. You, however, resorted to name-calling a number of times in response to him. Just sayin’…
@canonizer@chipgreen@DanOR@FritzCat on the flipside I was chastised by rj and rpm for one grammar error which was rather annoying. I have seen many grammatical errors on here and to be singled out because they did not agree with my position was petty to say the least.
@canonizer@DanOR I went back through my comments for the past 30 days, and the last PoliTicks thread, and found that I did indeed make derogatory statements about Twitch22. I re-read the posts, and am just amazed by how patient others have been with him. I think his posts were terribly disrespectful.
I guess I didn’t catch the disrespect although I was skimming a lot, finding the volume of posts a bit overwhelming at that time and as an elections official, was just plain exhausted from months of stress, long hours and working weekends. Thankfully my county pulled off the election without a hitch despite having to overcome quite a bit of adversity along the way!
@DanOR You comment about ‘respectful and even-tempered’ is risible. Virtually every voice that has been on the right here has left because real discussion has not possible for some time. We cannot even agree on what the facts are, let alone discuss political ideas. That’s why I left and won’t be back - other than this post, because the self-congratulation for having driven out conservative voices needs to be pricked like a boil. Just because we’re no longer out in public, doesn’t mean we’ve gone away or will go away.
With the banning of Trump and the de-platforming of multiple conservative voices, Democratic calls for humiliation and firing of anyone who supported Trump, we are heading straight towards despotism, destruction of the Bill of Rights, and worse.
As personally offensive as Trump has been, his policies for the most part have been highly beneficial to most Americans, and have made the world a safer, better place. He spent four years fending of the most scurrilous and false attacks from the left, the Democratic Party (but I repeat myself), and still managed to accomplish much.
If the left were so confident in its ideas and the honesty of the recent elections, it would be the first in line to have open counting of votes, verification of voter signatures, open recounts; and would welcome the full and complete airing of all of the evidence put forward of vote fraud - the opposite of what has happened: the challenges have never been openly and fully aired, but have been shut down without evidentiary hearings or dismissed out of hand. That is not the way to convince 74-odd million voters that you didn’t steal the election. And if the left weren’t totalitarian - fascist - it wouldn’t be busy de-platforming conservative sites and authors, getting people fired for their political views and demanding essentially ‘reeducation’ for Trump supporters.
The form of the republic will continue, but liberty as the Founders understood it is dead - and you are all like the good burghers in Nietzsche’s aphorism 125 from The Gay Science (Die Frölische Wissenschaft) who laughed at the ‘madman’ who came into their midst and decried the death of God… he came too soon and it had not yet arrived, though they had done the deed themselves. I’d like to think most of you are intelligent enough that you will eventually rue what you have done, but I’m not sanguine about it.
@rpm, I’m hesitantly tagging you since you unequivocally stated your intention to leave the conversation.
Why is there such conviction that a hand recount is necessary in the swing States where Republicans picked up House seats? Numerous states under conservative leadership (eg Raffensberger) conducted recounts. The Intelligence community said it was a secure election. There does not seem to be any there, there.
I think it’s weird that there’s this natural acceptance that every one of 74M Trump votes was legitimately cast but Biden’s are suspect. The baseline assumption that distasteful electoral results must be false stuns me.
Clinton conceded the day after the election in 2016. For two months, Republicans have been chanting, “Stop the steal.” The assault on the Capitol is a natural outgrowth of this rejection of democracy by conservative leaders/thinkers.
I’m sorry we can only agree on distrusting each other’s news sources.
I really do try to listen to the opinion of others, so I’ll first ask a few questions and end with a comment. You and I have never met, and I don’t know you except for your few posts. Hopefully your statement about not participating except for that one post is not true, stoking the fire and then walking away.
First a few questions. You state something is a fact when many would view it is your opinion, thereby talking in generalities instead of stating facts that back your opinion. Specifically you state “his policies for the most part have been highly beneficial to most Americans, and have made the world a safer, better place.” This is clearly an opinion, one that I think many would disagree with. I would ask that you provide the facts used to develop the opinion of being in a better place than we were 4 years ago.
You state that democrats “would welcome the full and complete airing of all of the evidence put forward of vote fraud”. Trump’s team submitted over 60 lawsuits and our courts, many of them led by Trump appointed judges, consistently have said there was either no proof or legal grounds for their lawsuits. The question, do you believe that our justice system did not provide Trump a chance to question the election that just occurred or are you saying the process of future elections needs to be reviewed/revised? Regarding this past election, continually repeating that there was fraud doesn’t make it a fact, especially when the conclusion of every investigation, review and recount has suggested otherwise, including the Barr led DOJ.
Last question, do you think freedom of speech extends to private industries and companies? These platforms clearly provided Trump leniency over the past 4 years, up until the past few months. Should they have let him continue to use their platforms to allow a person to organize riots on the capital, especially when there is a big push (Trump included) to eliminate the law that protects these platforms from being held accountable for the member posts?
For the comment, and what irked me about your post, the statement/implication that democrats are fascist and will/should regret their current opinions/actions after stating that republicans have left this conversation because how that were treated. That’s like throwing stones in glass houses. What good is going to come from making such a statement?
I think you all know my position - we are all better off with a diversity of voices joining in respectful and even tempered discussion/debate. I’ve bent over backward to avoid (as best I can) making statements that would inflame others. I hope I’ve succeeded.
Not so long ago this forum was frequented by right-leaning people, but over the last couple years of the Obama presidency and throughout the Trump presidency some folks (none who are tagged here) seemed to get angrier and angrier. Arguments seemed to go farther and farther from facts.
So I hope that tempers can calm down and with the passing of the Trump era hopefully we can find our way back to having useful and insightful debates on policy and the best ways to steer the country toward a bright future.
@DanOR@dirtdoctor@klezman@rpm my biggest issue is that many are willing to give Trump a pass (vile, racist, sexist, and divisive speech and/or actions) so long as he has sound policies (which are debatable). How is this ok?
It looks like Mitch McConnell, Liz Cheney and untold numbers of additional Republicans are ready and willing to vote for Impeachment at this point, to wash their hands of Trump and prevent him from running again in 2024.
While the siege on the Capitol was the last straw, I believe the fracture was already in progress. Trump’s (and his lackeys) antics were to blame for both GA Republicans losing the runoff elections that would have kept control of the Senate. Trump, as usual, was more concerned about himself than what was good for the party.
A repositioning of the party has already begun as the article surmises that “Mr McConnell, it seems, has calculated that losing some of the president’s most loyal following would be less damaging than the exodus of moderates that would occur if he and other leaders stand by Mr Trump.”.
Furthermore, it goes on to point out that “For Mr McConnell it is all about winning. The bald facts are that in 2016 Republicans controlled the White House, the Senate and the House. After four years of Mr Trump they have lost all three.”.
This correlates with my own contention that, ultimately, the party bosses want to win and if it requires fielding more moderate candidates to do so, then that’s what they will do. It remains up to the American public to take back the Republican party from the likes of Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and Q-Anon crazies.
@chipgreen Agreed, especially about McConnell and his thirst for power (which requires a service to winning above all).
I hope the GOP can figure out how to moderate, but I think a clean break between the Trumpers and the rest into a new party would be good. This country needs an honest centre, left, and right voice in politics.
I am still a fan of the (supposed) silent majority of moderates forming a new party. It’d be tremendously successful.
I did not vote for Trump in 2016 because I was afraid he would do something erratic and dangerous like start a nuclear war with South Korea. As I waited for impending international conflict, the Mainstream Media criticized every decision he made and refused to credit his successes and I began to wonder if I was being brainwashed. This summer, despite his refusal to do simple things to improve his chances of reelection (like not putting on a mask) I started thinking that Americans were generally better off than they were 4 years ago, that on balance he did a better job with the pandemic than Hillary Clinton would have done, and that Joe Biden might be ok but there was no way he’d last 4 years (and Kamala Harris was a wild card.)* Then, the first debate happened and I decided that I just couldn’t vote for him. Of course, the events of the last 2 months have vindicated all the pundits who predicted catastrophe 4 years ago, so enjoy the Schadenfreude guys, but be careful with the tinder. It’s a dry forest out there, lots of people thinking that ideological purity has a place in party politics and that violence is justified when you don’t get what you want.
*These are my opinions, these are not facts. I’m not going to substantiate them with evidence, this is simply how I feel. You are encouraged to think my opinions suck, but I’d rather not hear about it unless you can find a way to say it respectfully.
@KitMarlot Why do you think Clinton would have handled the pandemic in a worse way than Trump? While estimates vary, Trump’s inaction and downplaying the pandemic have led to tens of thousands more deaths than more competent responses. Furthermore, a competent response would have avoided politicizing a virus.
While I’m not certain Clinton wouldn’t have fallen into some of the same traps, at least she lives in a world of facts.
@klezman I said I wasn’t going to substantiate my opinions, but I suppose this one needs some explanation. I named Mrs. Clinton because she was the dem nominee in 2016, but I could have subbed “Democrat X”. (Once more, these are my opinions) Operation Warp Speed, forcing GM to make ventilators and letting local govt’s decide on lockdowns don’t happen with a Democrat in charge. PPP and $600 bonus for unemployment maybe, but I’d be surprised if stimulus checks go out as quickly as they did without someone as independent as someone like Trump.
Furthermore, a competent response would have avoided politicizing a virus.
And you think Mrs. Clinton wouldn’t have?
While I’m not certain Clinton wouldn’t have fallen into some of the same traps
She certainly wouldn’t have had daily press conferences where she put her ignorance on display, but there isn’t a whole lot a federal government (non-authoritarian class) can do once an unknown virus is loose. We were woefully unprepared.
@KitMarlot@klezman Bringing Mrs. Clinton into this discussion is simply diversion, a chance to trot out a familiar boogeyman. The far right has demonized Mrs. Clinton to the point where millions believe she worships satan and slaughters babies. Unfortunately, that’s not hyperbole, it’s a sad comment on the gullibility of Americans. As a result, many conservatives believe her capable of any evil and incapable of anything constructive. She in fact is extremely intelligent and if faced with the covid crisis, her efforts and effectiveness would easily eclipse trump, whose response was catatonic at best, if not criminal malfeasance.
@KitMarlot Fair enough. You are, of course, welcome to your opinions and I’m not trying to persuade you. I’m simply trying to understand how you arrived at that opinion.
An administration that denies reality and scoffs at science is particularly poorly positioned to deal with a pandemic. That’s really why I think any other administration, Democrat or Republican, would have managed better than did Trump.
We both acknowledge that’s opinion. We’ll get to see what a Biden administration does starting next week.
@KitMarlot my parents always taught me to treat others like you want to be treated. I truly believe the media despises Trump because he has been attacking them both as a unit and individually since he took office. As a leader he could have done a much better job to mend fences. He chose not to.
I can’t help myself, as it’s in my nature as an analytical engineer, not to comment about providing facts/reasoning/observations to explain one’s opinions. I am guilty of asking the “why” question, as that’s how I try to understand how someone derived an opinion. Why it that now considered wrong? It’s not an attempt at being derogatory or to belittle, but to gain an understanding of an opinion so that we can have a civil discussion.
If it’s okay to just state an opinion as if it’s a fact, without providing reasoning or background, that when you get a bunch of people believing that Democrats are a bunch of pedophiles running a child sex trafficking business behind a pizza parlor in Maryland, while Trump is a Savior that is going to win a war against them.
Bringing Mrs. Clinton into this discussion is simply diversion, a chance to trot out a familiar boogeyman. The far right has demonized Mrs. Clinton to the point where millions believe she worships satan and slaughters babies. Unfortunately, that’s not hyperbole…
Considering the high stakes involved for our country with the pandemic, what has stopped her from coming up with some useful suggestions on how to better handle it? Lots of other people have weighed in with opinions and suggestions while she has remained silent. Maybe she is still working on her health care reform project that she started n 1993.
@losthighwayz He gives as good as he gets, and you could say he started it. No argument there. I think the media is outraged for both the ridiculous things he says and the way their reporting of his antics doesn’t change hearts and minds. Their power is diminished. I know when I hear/read something outrageous that he said I check multiple sources first before deciding if I 1.) believe it and 2.) care.
@canonizer@losthighwayz I hope impeachment removes him from public view instead of making a martyr of him. It was wise putting Jefferson Davis in Ft. Monroe even if he deserved to be hanged on the spot. Started the healing process after the Civil War on solid footing.
Yeah and I thought Obama would be the great unifier after all the bad will generated by Bush Jr. for invading Iraq. Instead, he continued the same foreign policies as Bush while concentrating on ramming through “Obamacare” to create a legacy for himself. Considering that Biden was part of that administration, I am not holding my breath on the unification thing but time will tell.
@chipgreen@KitMarlot@klezman@rjquillin Uhhh, because he was brown? I know…“he’s making this about race again”, but I really do believe that for many, especially on the right/in the south, that is a significant factor.
@KitMarlot@klezman I do think that Bernie becoming chairman of the Senate Budget Committee is genius! Now Bernie will have to look at both sides of the budget equation rather than just handing out money like candy. (At least I hope this happens)
@KitMarlot That’s pretty good, actually. I think Obama’s intent was to make things better for all Americans. It would have been bad if he had focused on making things better for African-Americans. Note that I’ve always been a big fan of Carter, so you’ve got to suspect my opinions on everything.
@chipgreen@KitMarlot Honest question - do you think there was any policy Obama could propose (faithful to his campaign promises in any way) that would have garnered Republican support? Even restricting the question to a health care overhaul.
@rjquillin Welcome back to the discussion, your absence was noted. I might give credit to your “both sides”-ism if you can point out anything the Dems have done that compares to the GOP’s failing to consider the nomination of Merrick Garland for the last YEAR of Obama’s term (to “let the voters decide”), then pushing through Amy Coney Barrett in a matter of weeks before this election.
Under threat of legal action from Dominion, here is the American Thinker’s retraction for their part in amplifying the COMPLETE FUCKING LIE that was the notion that fraud played any part whatsoever in the election of Joe Biden because said lies had NO BASIS IN FACT. I hope their profiteering, warmongering, grifting souls rot in hell for encouraging division and violence in our Union.
I’m sorry for the caps but, man, my f’ing blood pressure.
American Thinker and contributors Andrea Widburg, R.D. Wedge, Brian Tomlinson, and Peggy Ryan have published pieces on www.AmericanThinker.com that falsely accuse US Dominion Inc., Dominion Voting Systems, Inc., and Dominion Voting Systems Corporation (collectively “Dominion”) of conspiring to steal the November 2020 election from Donald Trump.
These pieces rely on discredited sources who have peddled debunked theories about Dominion’s supposed ties to Venezuela, fraud on Dominion’s machines that resulted in massive vote switching or weighted votes, and other claims falsely stating that there is credible evidence that Dominion acted fraudulently.
These statements are completely false and have no basis in fact. Industry experts and public officials alike have confirmed that Dominion conducted itself appropriately and that there is simply no evidence to support these claims.
It was wrong for us to publish these false statements. We apologize to Dominion for all of the harm this caused them and their employees. We also apologize to our readers for abandoning 9 journalistic principles and misrepresenting Dominion’s track record and its limited role in tabulating votes for the November 2020 election. We regret this grave error.
@canonizer Is there a reason why you left this part of the page off of your post?
We received a lengthy letter from Dominion’s defamation lawyers
explaining why they believe that their client has been the victim of
defamatory statements. Having considered the full import of the
letter, we have agreed to their request that we publish the following
They knowingly amplified absolute lies about Dominion. They do not have any journalistic standards, let alone rigorous ones. They have so much first amendment protection and could easily turn aside any litigation if they hadn’t actually manufactured the story.