@danandlisa@FritzCat@KitMarlot apologies for letting my disgust get the better of me and sling an epithet at the former president. I meant it more tongue in cheek than it came off, but still, I prefer more reasoned debate.
Nonetheless, I think the man is corrosive to this country’s politics. And he’s a symptom more than a cause to be sure. I just wish he’d leave public life so we could all move on.
I don’t think there is “too much credit” considering the percentage of Republicans that polls show believe the election was stolen/rigged and that violence was/is justified. 66% believe it was stolen, increasing to 86% of Fox News viewers and 96% for One America New and Newmax viewers. A YouGov/CBS poll indicated only 34 percent of Republicans expressed strong disapproval of the Jan. 6th riot and 42 percent said they only “somewhat” disapproved. I’m always amazed at those numbers, even if there’s some error in the polls that over-estimate those percentages.
These opinions exist at the same time when people will soon vote for individuals who want to change the election process/laws to allow political parties to certify/change election results.
What do you folks think of the law passed in NYC that allows legal permanent residents (and DACA recipients) to vote in municipal elections?
Not sure how I feel about the DACA recipients, but I like the idea of green card holders being able to vote in local elections.
@rjquillin That’s an interesting point, Ron. I hadn’t thought about the maintenance issues. Although that always makes me go back to the question of why we don’t just institute a national voter registry - it would prevent so many issues we currently have. In particular, it also solves the problem of people moving to different districts and records not getting updated properly. If you tie in the correct data sources it also gets rid of the problem of not un-registering people who die and such. But I think the technology we have in 2022 should be able to solve that logistical problem if only we let it.
@Mark_L I understand the reaction, but are there reasons in particular you feel that way?
Not expressing support for the idea but the list maintenance would not be hard. We already do something similar in OH with 17 year olds, who are allowed to vote in Primary Elections as long as they will be 18 on or before the date of the General Election that year. They have a special status in our registration system which allows them to vote for candidates only, not issues. We change their status about a week before the General Election so that they have full voting privileges from that point.
Only Canadian citizens can vote
Section 3 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms reads:
Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.
And in Mexico (via wiki)
In order to be able to vote, all Mexican citizens must obtain a photographic voter identification card from the National Electoral Institute (Instituto Nacional Electoral [INE]). To receive a card, potential voters need:
Proof of either their birth in Mexico or their naturalization
Some form of photo ID
Proof of their residence
With these three documents, a potential voter can request their Credentials to Vote card (Credencial para Votar).
The constitutional amendments nowhere say that only US citizens can vote. It says that the government may not abridge voting rights based on certain characteristics. Hell, it doesn’t even guarantee the right to vote writ large, as some of the shenanigans in some states along with the judicial responses will tell you.
The Canadian Charter or Rights and Freedoms has a similar structure - except that it actually guarantees all citizens the right to vote. Nowhere does it say that the government is forbidden from permitting non-citizens to vote. (FWIW, I think a realistic update of many constitutional provisions here could take some direction from the Charter. It’s so much more clear about most things, having been written only 40 years ago.)
The Mexican law is harder to parse, especially since that appears to be a summary rather than the text.
Regardless, that’s all beside the point. I’m not advocating for one position or the other here - I’m trying to discuss the merits of allowing non-citizens to vote in certain local elections. I’m not advocating getting rid of the federal law that says non-citizens may not vote in federal elections. And I’m certainly not suggesting that non-citizens must be permitted to vote - that’s nonsensical.
As a green card holder who pays fairly significant amounts in state and local taxes I would certainly welcome the ability to vote in the races that will most directly affect me. But then again, it’s obviously not compelled.
@chipgreen@Mark_L@rjquillin Sure, I’ve been here long enough that I could apply. Obviously to date I’ve not thought that the costs (both time and money) of getting citizenship were worth the benefits.
But that again misses the point, which is to discuss the merits of allowing non-citizens to vote. You could easily say “there are zero merits”, but without further explanation I wouldn’t know how to understand that position. Perhaps it’s just “that’s how it’s always been” or some other notion in that vein. That’s why I am trying to discuss it and hear other people’s points of view!
@chipgreen@klezman@Mark_L@rjquillin Pragmatically, it makes more sense to focus the energy into making sure folks who are already entitled to vote are not prevented from doing so. Sorry Klez, I see this as a distraction.
@chipgreen@davirom@Mark_L@rjquillin Also a very fair point, one that I agree with wholeheartedly. I only mentioned it because I saw the headline yesterday about the NYC law. But then again, I don’t think our little forum here matters a bit in the broader discussion of voting rights.
To me it seems reasonable to propose an amendment stating unequivocally that all citizens of the United States have the right to vote and no branch of government may raise a barrier to exercising that vote. But good luck with getting any of the (much needed) constitutional amendments through these days.
Interesting too, Monmouth University Polling Institute found, according to a Yahoo!news report
Additionally, 84 percent of non-white respondents said they supported requiring photo ID, along with 77 percent of white respondents. People with college degrees were less likely to support ID requirements, with 69 percent of respondents with four years of college supporting compared with 85 percent of respondents with no degree.
Why is it those with a higher education are less supportive?
Could it be that CRT influence in higher ed?
Perhaps I need a content filter after x-ml of processed grape juice. Even if it is only 13.9%
I’ve said many times here (and in person, I suspect) that I have no problem with requiring identification in principle. As long as it comes with a commitment from all levels of government to make obtaining a satisfactory ID an easy task.
@CroutonOllie@losthighwayz@Mark_L@rjquillin to address the federal election issue, there is already a law saying that non citizens may not vote in federal elections, and that would obviously preempt state law. That’s why you’d prefer the federal law in this case…
I agree, in the law that they passed, there is the provision that says their ‘right’ to vote is limited to the local matters only, but it establishes a lousy precedent, in my opinion. Maybe this is a good thing, as all illegals might be drawn there, and relieve other places of having to deal with the nonsense we have brought upon ourselves.
Edit to add: Maybe FL could park all those that they got foisted upon them, there. States need to stand up for themselves, and not sell out to a central government that hurts them; enough is enough.
@CroutonOllie@losthighwayz@Mark_L@rjquillin I don’t know why illegal immigrants would flock there since those laws only apply to green card holders and those with work authorization. Illegal immigrants don’t meet either of those criteria. And like many other legal immigrants, I’m no fan of illegal immigration.
@CroutonOllie@losthighwayz@Mark_L@rjquillin I’m always down to share a bottle and ideas. I’ve got plenty you can choose from as well.
Not sure why you say that it’s proven illegitimate though. Are you suggesting that people have fake green cards and such? Those are not easy documents to forge.
As I’ve noted before, one reason I pay very close attention to the Israeli-Palestinian arena is that a lot of trends get perfected there first and then go global — airline hijacking, suicide bombing, building a wall, the challenges of pluralism and lots more. It’s Off Broadway to Broadway, so what’s playing there these days that might be a harbinger for politics in the U.S.?
Answer: It’s the most diverse national unity government in Israel’s history, one that stretches from Jewish settlers on the right all the way to an Israeli-Arab Islamist party and super-liberals on the left. Most important, it’s holding together, getting stuff done and muting the hyperpolarization that was making Israel ungovernable.
Is that what America needs in 2024 — a ticket of Joe Biden and Liz Cheney? Or Joe Biden and Lisa Murkowski, or Kamala Harris and Mitt Romney, or Stacey Abrams and Liz Cheney, or Amy Klobuchar and Liz Cheney? Or any other such combination. Before you leap into the comments section, hear me out.
In June, after an utterly wild period in which Israel held four national elections over two years and kept failing to produce a stable governing majority, the lambs there actually lay down with the lions.
Key Israeli politicians swallowed their pride, softened policy edges and came together for a four-year national unity government — led by rightist Prime Minister Naftali Bennett and left-of-center Alternate Prime Minister Yair Lapid. (They are to switch places after two years.) And for the first time, an Israeli Arab party, the Islamist organization Raam, played a vital role in cementing an Israeli coalition.
What forced everyone’s hand? A broad agreement that Israeli politics was being held hostage by then-Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, who resisted putting together any government that he would not lead, apparently because, if he didn’t lead, he could lose his chance at some kind of immunity from prosecution on multiple corruption charges that could lead to prison.
Netanyahu was just a smarter Donald Trump, constantly delegitimizing the mainstream media and the Israeli justice system and vigorously exploiting social/religious/ethnic fault lines to divide and rule. He eventually stressed out the system so much that several of his former allies broke away to forge a unity coalition with Israeli center, left and Arab parties.
As Hebrew University of Jerusalem religious philosopher Moshe Halbertal put it to me: “What happened here is that there is still enough civic responsibility — not everywhere, but enough — that the political class felt that the continued breakdown of the rule of law and more elections, which was leading nowhere, was an indulgence that Israel simply could not afford, given its highly diverse population and dangerous neighborhood.”
This new Israeli government will neither annex the West Bank nor make final peace with the Palestinians, Halbertal noted, but it is one “that will attempt to renew the relationship with the Palestinian Authority rather than weakening it. It is one that prevented a racist anti-Arab party allied to Netanyahu from entering the cabinet.” And it is one that is counterbalancing Bibi’s strong embrace of the less-than-democratic, ultranationalist states in Europe and evangelical Christians and Trump Republicans in America “by rebuilding ties with the Democrats, liberal American Jews and liberal parties in Europe.”
As Israeli leaders treat each other — and Israeli and Palestinians leaders treat each other — with a little more respect, and a little less contempt, because they are out of Facebook and into face-to-face relations again, stuff is getting done. Unity has not meant paralysis. This coalition in November passed Israel’s first national budget since 2018! So far, every attempt to topple it has failed.
Mansour Abbas, the Islamist party’s leader, even recently stunned many Israeli Arabs and Jews when he publicly declared, “Israel was born a Jewish state; that was the decision of the people.” He continued: “It was born this way, and it will remain this way. The question is, what is the status of the Arab citizen in the Jewish state of Israel?’’
Could this play come to Broadway? I asked Steven Levitsky, a political scientist and co-author of “How Democracies Die,” after he presented some similar ideas last week to my colleague David Leonhardt.
America is facing an existential moment, Levitsky told me, noting that the Republican Party has shown that it isn’t committed any longer to playing by democratic rules, leaving the United States uniquely threatened among Western democracies.
That all means two things, he continued. First, this Trump-cult version of the G.O.P. must never be able to retake the White House. Since Trump has made embracing the Big Lie — that the 2020 election was a fraud — a prerequisite for being in the Trump G.O.P., his entire cabinet most likely would be people who denied, or worked to overturn, Biden’s election victory. There is no reason to believe they would cede power the next time.
“In a democracy,” Levitsky said, “parties lose popularity and they lose elections. That is normal. But a democracy cannot afford for this Republican Party to win again because they have demonstrated a ton of evidence that they are no longer committed to the democratic rules of the game.”
So Biden-Cheney is not such a crazy idea? I asked.
“Not at all,” said Levitsky. “We should be ready to talk about Liz Cheney as part of a blow-your-mind Israeli-style fusion coalition with Democrats. It is a coalition that says: ‘There is only one overriding goal right now — that is saving our democratic system.’”
That brings us to the second point. Saving a democratic system requires huge political sacrifice, added Levitsky. “It means A.O.C. campaigning for Liz Cheney” and it means Liz Cheney “putting on the shelf” many policy goals she and other Republicans cherish. “But that is what it takes, and if you don’t do it, just look back and see why democracy collapsed in countries like Germany, Spain and Chile. The democratic forces there should have done it, but they didn’t.”
To put it differently, this Trump-cult version of the G.O.P. is trying to gain power through an election, but it’s trying to increase its odds of winning by gaming the system in battleground states. America’s small-d democrats need to counter those moves and increase their odds of winning. The best way to do that is by creating a broad national unity vehicle that enables more Republicans to leave the Trump cult — without having to just become big-D Democrats. We all have to be small-d democrats now, or we won’t have a system to be big-D or big-R anythings.
That is what civic-minded Israeli elites did when they created a broad national unity coalition whose main mission was to make the basic functions of government work again and safeguard the integrity of Israel’s democracy.
Such a vehicle in America, said Levitsky, should “be able to shave a small but decisive fraction of Republican votes away from Trump.” In a tight race, it would take only 5 or 10 percent of Republicans leaving Trump to assure victory. And that is what matters.
This is the democratic way of defeating a threat to democracy. Not doing it is how democracies die. I am quite aware that it is highly unlikely; America does not have the flexibility of a parliamentary, proportional-representation system, like Israel’s, and there is no modern precedent for such a cross-party ticket. And yet, I still think it is worth raising. There is no precedent for how close we’re coming to an unraveling of our democracy, either.
As Levitsky put it: “If we treat this as a normal election, our democracy stands a coin flip’s chance of survival. Those are odds that I don’t want to run. We need to communicate to the public and the establishment that this is not a normal donkeys-versus-elephants election. This is democracy versus authoritarians.”
This is not for the long term, noted Levitsky: “I want to get back as quickly as possible to where I can disagree with Liz Cheney on every policy issue” — and that is the most we have to worry about — “but not until our democracy is safe.”
OMFG. I pop back in and someone posts ridiculous Biden-anybody 2024 ticket as “Democratic”?? Biden who’s pushing for the end of the filibuster he (and other major Dems) once championed? All so they can stuff SCOTUS and Congress?
As bad as Trump is, Biden is by far a more dangerous choice! And none of the so-called Republicans mentioned would be acceptable!
Hey don’t shoot the messenger! @klezman brought up the article and posted the link. I simply copied and pasted the text in order for @rjquillin (and anyone else) to easily read it without dealing with the NYT paywall.