Aromatically, I get rich cherry and blackberry, a nice earthy component to offset this, a touch of leather and a touch of tobacco. In the palate, I get black fruits, cherry cola, a touch of menthol, a hint or licorice and some wonderful acidity. The tannins are fine but noticeable.
Winery: tercero wines
Owners: Larry Schaffer
Location: Los Olivos, CA
Larry Schaffer IS tercero wines. He founded the label as a ‘micro-winery’ in 2006 shortly after graduating from UC Davis with a MS in Viticulture and Enology. He went back to school to get this degree after having spent years and years in both the music and publishing industries. He realized that there had to be more, and he wanted to challenge himself since he was ‘scared’ of science his first go-around in college. He overcame this ‘fear’ and excelled in school, eventually landing a job as part of the winemaking team at Fess Parker Winery, where he remained for 7 vintages.
Larry is a ‘champion’ of Rhone varieties – 22 varieties that are most commonly associated with the Rhone Valley in France. Some of these are well known in this country – Syrah, Grenache, Viognier – while others like Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, Mourvedre, Cinsaut and plenty more are not. He serves on the national board of directors for the Rhone Rangers, an ‘advocacy group’ that aims to educate consumers on these varieties, as well as serving as the President of the Santa Barbara County chapter.
AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NJ, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY
Larry, you’ve outdone yourself! Time to get the West LA case split going at this price. Even though we have no space and no money. @time2testit et al?
For those who don’t know Larry and his wines, they are yummy. But also well structured and deep. This is also the only club molarchae and I are members of.
@klezman thank you for the kind words. As you know, this one hasn’t even been released yet. It is still quite Young but as I posted in the video, I enjoyed it over a four day. Then it continued to keep developing really nicely.
@rjquillin it’s really is quite a good deal if I must say so myself believe me when I say and I love to sell my wife less expensively, but then I truly and honestly wouldn’t be making much money at all. Remember that this is a 2012 wine.
@markgm Now THAT is funny - especially since I don’t have a wife to sell even if I DID want to Yes, yes - just kidding - and taking advantage of not auto-text-correction when typing at 30K feet last night!!!
@radiolysis@rjquillin@dbarrym@wei2go Splitting one or two cases between five c-mates? (2-3 each vs 4-5 each or the ability to split a mix of large & small quantities) The latter might work if we get another c-mate or someone wants, say, half a case.
I see: dbarrym: 4 bottles, wei2go: 2 bottles (a couple), radiolysis: 4-5 (‘a few’), rjquillin: ??, me: flexible
Splitting one or two cases between five c-mates? (2-3 each vs 4-5 each or the ability to split a mix of large & small quantities) The latter might work if we get another c-mate or someone wants, say, half a case.
I see: dbarrym: 4 bottles, wei2go: 2 bottles (a couple), radiolysis: 4-5 (‘a few’), rjquillin: 2~4, 3 optimal, tklivory: 4
So far, anyway.
Seems we’re well over one case, with min-max 16~22 as of 17:00 in our TZ; need to read the entire thread first in case anything has changed further down.
I’d be good to grab one of them. North county is a stretch from east county, hopefully one of us is closer.
@rjquillin from what I’ve seen @fring & @dbarrym as definitely in North County. I’m central/south SD. Not sure where @radiolysis & @wei2go are. But I’d say that 2 cases is more likely than not at this point, with six c-mates. With that in mind, having two different groups of splits makes sense if the logistics work out.
@tklivory i’m in central SD, just off the 8. With work pooling, i’m up to needing 6 bottles. Would anyone want to join on the other six? @rjquillin@wei2go@fring@dbarrym ? I can put the order in as well.
Well, harrumph, the problem is geography, obviously!
I know @rjquillin is likely the farthest from NC, so maybe shift the split to @radiolysis@rjquillin and @wei2go (6-3-3 or 6-4-2) for the central SD case, and @barrym@fring and myself (6-3-3 or 5-3-4) for the NC case if whoever orders the NC case (@dbarrym?) doesn’t mind holding it for a week or two until I get a chance to go pick it up on a weekend.
and @barrym@fring and myself (6-3-3 or 5-3-4) for the NC case if whoever orders the NC case (@dbarrym?)
(Time: 21:30 in our TZ)
Kinda dropped out yesterday PM.
I work just east of 805 north of Mira Mesa if that helps distribution logistics.
Could easily order or split from here, willing to hold and don’t need payment until picked up.
@tklivory I can place the order, just need quantity (want to get the case price) and participants - @fring and I have connected, if @tklivory or other want in on the NC SD buy, Email me at barry (dot) mattingly at gmail. cheers
@dbarrym NCSD Casemates, shipment is at FedEx, will pick up tomorrow afternoon (am returning from biz trip tonight), will let you know when I have the shipment in hand, will be in touch tomorrow to arrange transfer.
@rjquillin If you don’t like the image or gif that comes up, click edit and re-save the message (you don’t have to actually edit anything). You’ll get a different image every time (usually). You can keep doing it until the editing timeout.
I agree that this one is unfortunate and not very fun. If you’d like to delete it, perhaps you can prevail upon @thumperchick to help out since you didn’t know you could change it. I’m sure meh wants to be as accommodating as possible to all our new casemates compadres.
@klezman perhaps just a rumor, but supposedly if you edit that original post with giffy call, it will look for another image. I haven’t tested it myself. (I’m also not responsible for whatever comes up next!)
Funny how people think I dislike that image. It’s a lot better than much of what the other things bring up. If I ever do that again, though, I will put it in a separate comment that will get hidden with time.
So we’ve got @cortot for 3, @merrybill for 2, @rjquillin for n, @javadrinker, @swizzel for 1-2, @time2testit for m (3 or 4?), and I want some (3 or 4). Looks like maybe a second case is in order?
@klezman I’m in the 3-4 range as well. Who’s buying the case this go around? Of course I suck at actually getting around to seeing my dear imaginary internet wine friends so maybe I’ll just buy the three pack and avoid waiting five years to finally getting my stash for a slight discount.
That brings the total to 18-23. Looks like Ron is sorted with the SD crew. It makes the most sense for me to distribute to @time2testit, given we live 5 min apart. I think @swizzel, you said you’re in West LA/Culver? Aside from that, let’s get solid numbers so the rest of y’all can be sure you’ve got your wine. So that’s a definite 6-8 bottles from my case spoken for. @CorTot was next, so that’s 3 more @merrybill was next, so that 2 would fill the case
If a second case gets purchased we can re-sort the assignments based on proximity. But that means somebody else needs to purchase the next case.
@klezman I went ahead and got a three pack. But that doesn’t mean I’m out of an additional case share if someone buys and needs to spread the load. Whoever buys the second case, let me know and I’ll pitch in as needed.
Looks like nobody else bought the case. Sorry lost Once they sort out the case sharing infrastructure it’ll be far easier.
We know @dave and @snapster are working on it, but today it cost a case.
First off, in the interest of full disclosure, Coffeemate and I are big fans of Tercero Wines and Larry. We enjoy his style of winemaking and he’s a good all-around nice guy.
So on to the wine. We were lucky enough to receive a bottle of the 2012 Tercero Verbiage Rouge to LabRat. We were excited to jump in to try this GSM blend. We popped the bottle (screw top) and poured a few glasses. Not much on the nose. Color was a garnet hue. Minimal legs despite a relatively high alcohol content.
This GSM has quite a bit of acidity to it and the fruit was dominated by tart cherries but that could be something that could change with more time in bottle. We left the wine to sit while we had dinner.
FYI, the dinner we had did not lend itself to test out how this wine held up to food. We did try some Manchego with it and it paired awesomely.
After about 30 minutes, we still weren’t getting much on the nose but the wine had opened up a bit. We noted black cherry, blackberry, a hint of plum and violet, light dashes of tobacco, cassis and cherry cola. Another 30 minutes later and the wine seemed to close back up. Circle of life kind of stuff. I’m sure the wine would have evolved further had we had any more wine left to further evolve. Alas, the bottle was empty.
How to sum this up? Well, I’m having a hard time reconciling this bottle with the current Verbiage Rouge release. We had that one (the 2011) at a Tercero tasting hosted at a local restaurant late last year. It was one of our favorite pours of the night along with a few other offerings. Heck, we enjoyed the pours so much that we bought several bottles on the spot (all drunk-ed by now so no chance for a side by side comparison). I’m pretty sure we didn’t give this wine the time it really needed to open up. It’s a young wine. Very young. We’ll definitely be jumping in on the offering and letting these suckers sit.
@javadrinker thank you for the honest review of the wine. That would expect nothing more or less from you than that! As I said, this really still is quite a young wine. You saved me for Day 2 or day 3? Keep me posted please cuz I think that you’ll find that it’s going to develop for quite some time.
@tercerowines Ha, I wish we still had some left to taste after the first day. We shared with family as it seemed the decent thing to do. You try to say no to my dad’s sad puppy dog eyes as you try to swirl and take your lab rattage seriously.
@javadrinker I hear ya - but if you listened to my podcast or watched my video, you’d hear how the wine evolved over a 4 day period last week - and truly kept getting more expressive with more open time . . .
@tercerowines Well dur…if I had seen the video before my pop n pour fun I might have held back a little. But seriously man, the youth of the wine explains a lot about our experience on this one. We have faith in your skillz so have no doubt that purchases will be made and wine will be had!!! By me. And my wife if she asks politely.
@bsevern That indeed was a great weekend - and Jo Diaz is a saint for running the PS I Love You organization for as long as she did. The ‘challenge’ with niche groups is that if they stay that way, sometimes it becomes monetarily challenging to sustain them - and that’s what happened there. Bummer . . .
Hi Larry. I’m still holding onto a few of your older wines. Any chance you could let me know how they’re holding up?
2006 Camp4 Grenache
2008 The Climb
2009 Petite (probably good for a decade yet)
2009 Watch Hill and Larner Grenache
2010 White Hawk Viognier
@tercerowines I actually haven’t been able to find any BBQ since I moved here in 2011 that I found particularly mind blowing. If I was able to buy 3 bottles at the $21 shipped range i’d be on it, but bank account says no at the 12 bottle minimum. Perhaps if there is a next time.
@kapok6 Bummer - it’s been awhile since I was there, but I do remember having some killer BBQ . . . The price really is killer if I have to say so myself. This is a wine that I normally retail at $40, and it saw over 2.5 years in older FR oak. I put a lot of time and energy hand crafting this, and though I’d love to see my wines offered even cheaper, I truly and honestly can’t afford to as I wouldn’t make any money myself . . .
@tercerowines Certainly not saying it’s a bad deal either way you slice it. I hope you didn’t interpret it that way. I’m sure the wine is great. Just a matter of finances. Hopefully someone here in DFW gets some so I can buy a bottle or two off of them.
@PatrickKarcher They don’t have that running yet, so it would seem your options are to PM each other over on woot, or post a burner email address here. (If you post one that looks like it might be a personal email, the mods will delete it as a precaution.)
And yes folks, I’m here to answer any questions - or just to rattle some cages I was in South Carolina all weekend, pouring at a Red Cross benefit event that raised well over $250K - and I got to wear a tux as well! Bonus - got to check out Birds Fly South, a great craft brewery that specializes in Sours - and is run by down-to-earth, cool brewers who I got to hang out with for a couple of hours . . .
@rjquillin Great question, my friend! I use a saranex liner on all of my reds (and a saratin on my whites and rose). Why? Well, the saranex allows for a bit more OTR than the tin liners, and I want a bit more ‘development’ over time with my reds versus my whites. All of that said, I’ve opened some of my 2006 and 2007 reds recently, and they certainly have evolved - but not too quickly. Cheers!
@tercerowines why do you think this particular wine takes so long to develop in bottle? It seems like GSM at 5 years old should be pretty drinkable even with a short decant. What’s the age ability of this wine based on your current knowledge?
@CorTot Great question - and one that does not have a single answer per se. What I can tell you is that my winemaking ‘methodology’ allows for a slower development of wines than others. One of the key things that I do - or actually do not do - is ‘rack’ a wine during barrel aging. Most wineries ‘remove’ the wines from barrel after secondary fermentation is complete to take them off their ‘fine lees’, clean the barrels, and usually add SO2. By doing so, though, in essence you are ‘decanting’ your wine - and I really do not want to do that. I want to leave my wine as ‘tightly wound’ as possible so that when I’m releasing my 2012 (my UPCOMING vintage, by the way), the wine is drinkable but with upside potential. My 2011, for instance is more ‘open for business’ now. Also, this wine has a touch more syrah in it as compared to the other varieties, and that is a variety that usually rewards those who wait a bit longer Hope that answers the question - but if not, please continue to ask away. And do let me know if that was clear. Cheers!
@MSUMike Thank you! And the ‘challenge’ is that there really are few ‘absolute’ answers when it comes to wine and winemaking - and if a winemaker claims that he or she HAS the ‘one’ answer, please call BS on them!!!
@klezman Sure, I don’t like screw top beer and I don’t like clear and green bottles. But I understand why those things can be bad.
Have winemakers reached a point where cork, composite cork, rubber cork, or screw tops are similar in keeping wine fresh for longer periods of time?
@jml326 I too am interested. I have always rejected corks. As I have said before, there is nothing sexy about the ‘crack’ of the bottle opposed to the ‘pop’ of the cork. Maybe it’s a ritual I’ve enjoyed along with the cutting of foil. Nothing against the juice sold here because I actually am interested in trying this GSM. But I must say, MY instinct to pull the trigger is lessened.
@TechnoViking I can tell you from vacation in Portugal and visiting cork factories the cost of cork, good cork, can be high. So it could be a cost thing. Cork is a living product. Yes it’s been harvest and will not grow, but it does keep breathing. So some beverages might be better or worse depending on storage.
@jml326 I’m sure @tercerowines will jump in, but from what I’ve read it’s actually about getting the right air exchange rate (or oxygen transmission rate, Ron’s OTR comment above). Since cork is porous it allows a very slow air exchange with the wine, affecting the age. It’s not hard to make screwcaps completely airtight. That could affect the aging curve, as (in this extreme case) the oxygen-dependent aging processes would cease while the oxygen-independent aging processes would continue apace.
But you certainly don’t need to worry about cork taint!
@klezman Well, I do have some strong opinions about why I choose to use screw caps for all of my wines - white, rose and red - and have since my first releases back in 2006. It does not mean that I am anti-cork at all; it’s just that as a producer of a consumer product, I need to be able to stand behind my product, and if I used natural cork, it would make it that much more difficult to do so. Why? First off, we all know that a certain percentage of wines under natural cork are ‘corked’ - i.e. they will smell like wet cardboard or damp basement. Two challenges - 1) most folks have no clue what a corked wine smells like and 2) we all have different thresholds for picking up this fault. Above and beyond that, corks are all natural - which means the cell structure of each cork is unique; which means that the amount of oxygen that gets in and out of each cork is unique; which means that these wines will not age in a ‘consistent’ manner; which means that I could be like other wineries and tell you to chock up an ‘off’ bottle due to ‘bottle variation’, but I choose not to . . .
@jml326 ‘Freshness’ has as much to do about the chemistry of the actual wine and use of SO2 as any type of closure. Those ripe wines that can found throughout CA - in warmer areas like parts of Paso and Lodi, for instance - generally are going to have much higher pHs. That alone will make it difficult chemically for that wine to hold on for a really long time without going south . . .
@TechnoViking Cost used to be a major factor why wineries moved out of natural corks and into synthetic corks a few decades back. The problem - those plastic doohickeys did not work very well . . . The cost of the screw caps that I use on my current bottlings is about the same as some of the less expensive natural corks - but, cost has nothing to do with my decision to use what I use . . .
Long time fan of Larry’s wines. They have their own wine rack and are overflowing that now (no longer simply a “section”). Excited to add 3 bottles of this release to the “family”. Not sure where I’ll put it LOL!
Larry, similar to another post I’m looking at 2009 Cuvee Loco AND Cuvee Christie, along with 2010 Cuvee Loco, Verbiage Rouge, 2010 Mourvedre Larner and SBC, 2010 Grenache Watch Hill, 2011 & 2012 Mourvedre, 2011 Grenache Larner plus various of your whites (oh that Mourvedre rose) - the oldest white being '13 Verbiage Blanc and '13 Roussanne. Do you think those earlier whites will hold up much longer? And can the 2009 Cuvee’s can lay down much longer? Anything else I should pop sooner? Might need to have a Tercero wine party!
@mpcwine726 I am still pouring the 13 Roussanne in my tasting room - it truly is getting better and has years and years of life ahead of it - seriously. The verbiage blanc is in a ‘funky’ phase right now - I think you can continue to age it, but if you wanted to open it, make sure to give it a good swirl and wait perhaps 30 minutes for it to ‘open up’, just as you might a red. As far as the others go, nothing is ‘over the hill’ yet . . .
@tercerowines I’m a little closer to the coast but yeah SC is a nice neck of the woods. And I’ve been hiding here lately to get away from Chicago area where it’s been so cold, until just recently, my poor pup couldn’t put her paws on the ground. A pup with no time to poop is a sad pup!
@tercerowines I’ve still got half a dozen bottles of Larry’s Syrah, Grenache, Cuvee Loco and Verbiage, all 2010. These are so good. His Grenache is one of my favorite wines; the aromas are killer. This is an easy buy if you like Rhone varietals. Jump in, you won’t regret it.
@markgm thank you! I’m just doing what I always do, my friend. If you are not engaged in a process like this, it kind of defeats the purpose of having your product on a site like this with a community such as this one. At least that’s my viewpoint.
@pjmartin thank you and I appreciate the kind words. The great thing about those 2010s is that they still have a very long life ahead of them. None of them are anywhere near past-their-prime. And I’m glad that you love the aroma zon that Grenache. That variety is truly hauntingly mesmerizing to me.
@tercerowines back to the screwtops… How do you select your closures? What transmission rate do you target? Different for reds than whites? I wish someone out there would have done half their lot in cork and half in screwtops so that it could be an apples to apples comparison. I personally haven’t noticed much, if any, bottle development in wines under screwcap. There is one in particular that I’ve probably had 15 bottles of over the last 5 years and each one is the same, which is good and bad.
re: the Stelvin/cork thread, I’ve got some 2007 Buena Vista Syrah Carneros they put a twist-top on.
Last I opened one was in '15, guess I’m due for another, and it was amazingly fresh, not at all like an 8-year old bottle. I’m not sure these are aging at all, or at least quite slowly, and wonder how they may have been different. Need to find one again for an update.
I’ve got a few of your bottles (that I know of) from earlier woots tucked away as well I’d like your drink/hold opinion on as well.
@rjquillin I finished my last bottle of the 2007 Buena Vista Syrah in November 2017. My notes say it was fresher and better than the previous bottle. I don’t have enough experience to complete an opinion, but I haven’t had a corked or even bad screw cap bottle. I am doing better than ‘reported average’ on cork closure bottle faults, but hate when I experience one. I will admit that I enjoy the cork pulling, but in the end would give that up for 100% good bottles.
@trifecta As I mentioned above, I use different liners in my screw caps for different types of wines. I have always used saranex liners in my red. This is a polymer liner that allows in a bit more oxygen than the saratin liners I use for my whites and my rose. As far as your question about the same wines bottled under both closures - Plumpjack has being doing just that with their high end reserve Cabernet since the 1997 Vintage - for nearly 20 years. And the Wine Spectator has done comparative tastings between the two. The challenge - these have to be done ‘blind’ to rule out any bias . . .
@rjquillin And of the wines mentioned, I would drink up that 2009 Grenache Blanc sooner rather than later. You’ll notice it will have a distinct ‘petrol’ aroma to it to go along with the fruit - like an aged riesling. And drink that 09 Rose as well please - and let me know how both of these show. Of the rest, drink the 08 reds before the 07s or 09s - they were a little richer and not quite as austere and therefore will probably give a bit more immediate gratification. But by all means - DRINK MY WINES!!!
@pjmartin Interesting about that 07 Syrah - not one of mine, though Did you taste it blind or not? If not, do you think you may have been ‘biased’ to find it ‘not aging as much as a wine under cork’? Just have to ask . . .
@tercerowines Never said that the bottle was not aging as much as a wine under cork. My note said I was surprised to find it fresher than the previous bottle of the same that I had drank. Bad memory, different biological day, different meal, more tastes under my belt, all probable reasons for the comparison. And blind, gosh no. I am way to green at this wine thing for that. Have only done that twice or so, wayyyy to humbling. I am just enjoying the road and the experiences while on it.
@pjmartin Thanks for the clarification - truly appreciated. And I agree about blind tasting - it is way too humbling. I like to use it in cases like these, though, when ‘bias’ really does play a large part in how we ‘react’ to something. ‘Freshness’ will be kept intact or a longer period with screw caps, but if you read up on the experiences on the PlumpJack wines, you’ll see that they do certainly develop - and eventually ‘catch up’ with the wines under cork - without any possible TCA of course
@klezman Ooooh - that’s a good one. ‘Favorite’ is tough because I truly and honestly dig so many of them. As you probably know, on the red side Mourvedre and Grenache have always been my faves - Mourvedre either from Bandol or in a Beaucastel blend and Grenache either in an old world CdP blend or better yet, Rayas or Pignan. On the white side, I have really come to love and respect both Marsanne and Roussanne - so lovely, so mesmerizing - but both take patience and lots of it. I think all of these varieties have potential in SBC - but it not only has to do about where they are grown but how they are handled. I am NOT a fan of new oak on either Grenache or Mourvedre - and not as much a fan of the ever-popular riper styles that are all fruit and nothing else. I use the term ‘winemaker terroir’ here - let the beauty of the grapes stand up front and don’t ‘mask’ them in ripeness, in oak, or even in blends some of the time. That is NOT what most winemakers think of when thinking of these 2 varieties. How’s that for a start?!?!?
@rjquillin Not too many example of Marsanne being produced in CA. I now make one - my 14 is truly a special wine; Qupe continues to set the standard. As far as Roussanne goes, Qupe, Tablas Creek, Alban, Terre Rouge - those are my go to’s (and I make one, too) . . .
@rjquillin Can’t say I’ve ever had Peter’s to compare with, but Qupe is somewhat the ‘gold standard’ in CA. In fact, they were the first to bottle a varietally labeled Marsanne in the US - in the late 80’s.
@tercerowines I’m sorry, but maraschino liqueur vs cherries? I have to stand my ground. From Wiki:
“A maraschino cherry is a preserved, sweetened cherry, typically made from light-colored sweet cherries such as the Royal Ann, Rainier, or Gold varieties. In their modern form, the cherries are first preserved in a brine solution usually containing sulfur dioxide and calcium chloride to bleach the fruit, then soaked in a suspension of food coloring (common red food dye is FD&C Red 40), sugar syrup, and other components.”
An utterly artificial product, albeit tasty in the right places.
In contrast, the liqueur is distilled from Marasca cherries. It has about as much in common with maraschino cherries as Grande Marnier has with orange marmalade.
[I was so upset about this that I had to pour a dram of Luxardo to calm me down.]
@rpstrong You, my friend, are quite funny . . . And THAT is the way to go about this - explaining in detail the difference. That said, some folks STILL will not be able to differentiate between the two - just human nature.
@dodohead Great question! I’m not one to hold stuff for too long - unless I intentionally ‘hide’ it to rediscover later Instead, open a bottle, pour a glass, give it a big swirl, and see what it’s showing. Either follow that glass through dinner and after dinner, or pour yourself a second glass. Save the rest of the bottle for Day 2 and see how it’s developing. Just don’t leave the bottle out in a warm place. Based on the bottle I had last week, it is still quite young and it’s best days lay ahead - but is still quite enjoyable with a little patience - just don’t be discouraged if it does not show much upon opening. Make sense? Ask away any further questions - but please open a bottle sooner rather than later when they arrive . . . and thank you
@jml326 Nope - not what I said. My wines certainly have age-ability and will continue to evolve for quite some time. That said, because I keep my wines in oak for as long as I do - in this case, 28 months - they become more ‘approachable’ than if I had them in oak less. Therefore, they can be enjoyable now with a good decant OR you can lay them down for awhile. The decision is really up to you - and to what type of enjoyment you want to have. The only important point I would make - don’t set wines aside too long that you want to ‘enjoy and cherish’ - because each day is worth opening up something special . . .
@Twich22 I would consider sitting out on the counter in the kitchen in direct sunlight a warm place - or on top of the fridge - but if your house stays cool all year round, then those places may not be too warm Anything below 68 or so would be fine IMHO.
Larry, how about talking about the economics of Santa Barbara County? As you can tell from some of the discourse even the discounted rate is above what most people are looking to pay these days. Not saying the juice isn’t worth the $$ (oh hellz no I’m not) but we can’t drink $30 - $40 (full retail) bottles every day. But I bet there would be lot more full cellars at the $20 - $30 range.
@javadrinker Well . . . you can certainly find wines coming out of our area in that price range on a daily basis from medium to larger size wineries - not ‘tiny’ ones like me A few to look for: Jaffurs SBC Syrah; Au Bon Climat entry level Chardonnay and Pinot Noir; Qupe wines; The Pairing from Jonata. There really are quite a few in that sub-$30 range for sure. Smaller wineries like me, especially ones that age their wines as long as I do, simply can’t afford to sell wines on a regular basis that cheap. My wine club always gets a 20% discount on purchases (yep, this price is cheaper than what they can purchase for - but I passed along the link today to them to make sure they don’t miss out - and I do offer club members larger discounts from time to time as a show of ‘thanks for their support’. Does that make sense? I mean, you know that you can always find quality wines under $30 by going to your local wine shop and asking them about Loire wines or Languedoc or Spanish wines - wines where the government supports the industry monetarily. That does not happen here . . .
@tercerowines So Scott Harvey used to tell us that retail = wholesale x 2 and wholesale = costs x 2 in turn (give or take). How do you come up with your required bottle price to make a reasonable living and what if that is more than what you think you can get? (I know you line-price your reds and whites, so just assume average pricing works.)
@klezman You mean I’m supposed to make a living doing this? Say it ain’t so!!! Pricing remains quite tricky for me - I don’t have all the answers - seriously. Retail is usually FOB X 2 which is NOT the same as wholesale X 2 per se. If I sell wine within CA to a retailer, they will usually mark it up between 25 and 40%, depending upon the store. The X2 is usually if I sell wine to a wholesaler out of state, who then takes a piece and sells it to a retailer. Hope that makes sense . . .
@jml326 I thought I remember it saying early next week, but I could be wrong It will take me a few days to consolidate all and get into the hands of casemates - but I’ll make it happen as promptly as possible!!!
Well, that’s two offers in a row I’ve been in for. SWMBO and I have long enjoyed Larry’s wines (and breads, for that matter); and his engagement here in the comments is no surprise - the wine isn’t called ‘verbiage’ for nothing!
Larry, next time you see Maeapple (sadly departed from your tasting room, but still in touch I hope), let her know Lauren and Charles said hello.
And if you ever offer your Mourvedre Rosé on here, we’d probably be in for a case (we go through it like water in the summer).
@jawlz Thanks for the kind words. I will say hi to Maeapple for you - I still see her often, and you can to the next time you visit by stopping in at Refugio Ranch. As far as the Rose goes, you’ll have to go through me directly on that one
@WkdPanda Bandol certainly is under appreciated. A few of the ‘challenges’ of those wines - 1) they take time in bottle to develop, and most folks are impatient and 2) they tend to produce wines that have a fair amount of ‘funk’ in them, again something many don’t appreciate.
By the way, I also make a 100% Mourvedre Rose a la Bandol roses - and it’s pretty killer
Good morning, folks - ready for Day 2? I’ll be on here all morning - then need to drive about 2.5 hours for a sold out winemaker dinner this evening! I’ll try to answer any and all questions you may have - just ask away Cheers!
What ‘triggers’ you to purchase the wines that you do, whether on here, on other websites, or in person at a retail store or a winery? What are the three most important ‘factors’? Price? Packaging? Story? Scores? Awards?
@tercerowines Baltimore. I shop at 3 or 4 places depending on where I am for the day.
Total wine is the biggest, Hunt Valley Wine ( which is interesting because I think Wegmans owns 95% of this place now), Canton wine and spirits is my local go to, and Friendship Wine & Liquor a little out of the way, but if I’m up in this area they are good people.
@jml326 Thanks for the reply. Here’s a ‘challenge’ about in-store signage - it’s aim, of course, is to make your purchase and not to ‘personalize’ the process. My advice - get to know a single employee in each of these stores and see if you can ‘trust’ their opinions or not by giving them a shot or two at suggesting things . . .
@tercerowines The ‘nice’ thing about Total is that they open bottles all the time to try, and the employees who write reviews have their pictures attached. If you see them pouring samples or stocking shelves you have a face to put to the review. But their selection is large and overwhelming. It is probably why I’ve explored beer and whiskey/bourbon more.
@jml326 Yep, ‘overwhelming’ is a challenge in our industry - as is the explosion of craft beers and distilleries - withOUT the pompousness that the wine industry tends to put up front and center unfortunately . . .
@tercerowines I rarely take flyers on unknown producers anymore, but when I do it is typically price driven and evaluating the variety/alc%/pH/etc. Selling wine online is tough, and I would think producers have to deeply discount in order to get their name out there. The goal being to get repeat customers who pay closer to retail.
With my racks stuffed for years now, I rarely buy things I haven’t tasted first unless they come highly recommended. Formats like w.w. and casemates are the best way, particularly with labrat bottles, to get people to jump in (IMO).
Scores mean nothing to me (zilch).
@trifecta Loving the interaction, my friend! Do you folks use CT as a ‘gauge’ of what others think? And do you really ‘geek out’ on all of the scientific stuff? What does a pH really tell you? Even alcohol levels? You KNOW that with the new tax law, there’s been a chance in labeling laws, too, right? Cheers . . .
@tercerowines You are right, but I can get a good idea of ‘who they are’ by buying 12oz bottles. I grew into loving small release bombers. One of my more local is Tröegs and Springhouse. I just wish there was a better way for me to try your wine locally in a smaller bottle. Maybe I just need to keep going to my stores when they have tastings and try as many as I can then find an Untapped app for wine.
@jml326 Where are you located? I’m trying to get ‘out and about’ as much as possible these days. Also, get to know other wine drinkers in your area via this site, MeetUp, tastings at the local wine shop, etc. The ‘costs’ of wine go down when you get a group to pitch in Cheers!
@tercerowines Many here use CT on a regular basis. I use it daily (ish). Also, many of us do ‘geek out’ on all the scientific stuff. While pH/alc don’t tell you anything with certainty, they can provide supporting info. For instance, if I see a pinot that clocking in at 15.5 and pH at 3.8, I’m not going to buy without tasting it. I didn’t know about any change to the labeling laws, but when I’m buying online I hope that the producer is reflecting the real stats.
Forums like this allows for additional questions about whole cluster, yeast methods, malo methods, etc…
On that note, personal preferences on:
Native vs Selected yeast?
Innoculate for malo or rely on that stinky old barrel room?
That should keep you busy
Do you folks use CT as a ‘gauge’ of what others think? And do you really ‘geek out’ on all of the scientific stuff? What does a pH really tell you? Even alcohol levels? You KNOW that with the new tax law, there’s been a chance in labeling laws, too, right?
I personally like the lab notes, and factor them into a purchase. If all I have is AbV, no TA or pH, your chances of a sale diminish significantly.
Knowing the blend, and sources is a huge plus.
CT is at best spotty, unless you know the palate of the TN author; many I do trust.
Drink dates; again, throw them out unless you know the author.
I inoculate all of my ferments. Yeast has a job to do and I need to make sure that I go from grape to wine in a more ‘predictable’ way. I have done some native ferments - just prefer inoculating.
I have ‘transformed’ my winemaking such that all reds since 2014 (and many in 2013) are 100% whole cluster, foot stomped by me alone, and I’m in each 1/2 ton bin for about 15 minutes vigorously trying to break as many clusters as I can.
Not a huge fan of extended maceration - I feel it actually tends to ‘fine’ a wine (i.e. remove tannins and other things) rather than add more stuff (equilibrium and all).
Since I do 100% whole cluster, I do not bleed anything off. Used to back in the day to make my rose but not any more.
Used to religiously inoculate for ML but have not since 2010 or so. It gets done on its own, but just takes longer. The risk is with really warm springs - you don’t want the wines to oxidize before hitting them with SO2.
Sulfite levels? Dependent upon pH of the wine - and yes, I LIKE SO2 because I DON’T like making vinegar
@jml326 Gotcha - well hopefully I’ll be back in your area within the year - but for now, head down to DC - lots of great wine shops and winos I’ve got a wine club member who just moved there - he’ll have plenty of my stuff!!!
@rjquillin I’ll get back to new labeling laws later - gotta jump in shower and drive 3 hours for my winemaker dinner I’ll keep checking in though - and remember to remind your friends about my offer please!!!
Ok. So I find this impressive and intriguing “foot stomped by me alone”. Did you try other feet and they weren’t as good? Do you train in the off-season to ensure your feet are ready? Strength training? Sensitivity training?
Just a quick note of thanks to everyone who chimed in here - and who purchased my wines this time round! Honored and excited to be a part of Casemates - and hopefully I’ll be invited to offer my wines again in the near future!!!
@trifecta PS is not an easy variety to find in SB County - and not easy to grow in the style in which I prefer. I don’t like it when it’s too acidic since the tannins are then magnified; and I don’t like it too ripe or it gets flabby . . . that said, you’ve gotta try my new Cinsaut and Carignane - new directions, my friend - but still rhone to the bone
Even at this late date, I feel the need to issue a "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa."
I was supposed to be one of the Lab Rat-type folks for this offering, which, of course, I did not do. The bottle arrived a week ago Wednesday. Due to a combination of previously-scheduled obligations (e.g., my mother-in-law’s birthday), and other random and unplanned chaos, I did not have a good opportunity to sit down and spend some time evaluating the wine before Sunday afternoon …
… at which point I was on a plane heading to a meeting for work hundreds of miles away, from which I would not return until well after this sale was over.
And so it goes. Just the perfect storm of bad timing.